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> dacia 1300 engines, swap and tuning

dacia1210galbena
post 9 Nov 2008, 02:52
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who knows the differents between dacia heads and alpina renault?
Between alpina and r 18 1.6 head?
Can they swap?
Let's talk about tuning to improve torque and save fuel


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Muttley
post 12 Nov 2008, 14:44
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If u're talking 'bout the cylinder head, only the Dacia and the 5 Alpine can be swaped. They share almost the same engine block. The cam shaft must also be replaced. The Alpine pistons must also be used.
Recap:
- cylinder head
- cam shaft
- pistons
Obs:
- only with a 1.4 Dacia engine block.

Intrebare: de ce ai ID-ul si semnatura in romaneste?


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driverx
post 12 Nov 2008, 14:49
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O fi roman, da' o fi crezut ca forumu ie in inglish.


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dacia1210galbena
post 13 Nov 2008, 20:54
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Thanks to everybody for answering! Muttley,you're who I was waiting for. I saw your 1600 building. If the question is if I'm rumanian, I'm italian.Unfortunately my language and knowlodge are limitaded. Considering that dacia head is uniflow and then sparks on a side; alpina had to be better,a different chamber shape,sparks in the middle of the head. Now I understood that pistons are different because valves position.
Doesn't dacia camshafth fit to save fuel consuption?
I saw some ads about r 18 1600 engine, the head looks like alpina apart intake and exhaust on opposite sydes.(However renault preferred uniflow head after alpina:see r5 gtt)
See you soon for next tuning section
Thanks.Multumesc anticipat


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Stefan
post 13 Nov 2008, 22:19
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He was asking why do you have a romanian id. I don't think he knows yet of Google translate.
Am dreptate? radmasa.gif


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Muttley
post 14 Nov 2008, 08:27
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dacia1210galbena, I'll try to answer all of your questions.

First, the 18 turbo engine is different from the 12 engine. It's another engine block, aluminium in the case of the 18 (same engine block as in the case of the Renault 16 TS or Renault 12 Gordini). That's why there's no compatibility between the two.

Second... The Dacia camshaft won't be any good on a Alpine cylinder head. That's because of the valves displacement. On the Dacia, the exhausts and the intakes are E A A E E A A E. For the Alpine, they're E A E A E A E A. This means that the engine would never start. Not to mention the cam lift wich is different for the two.

Then... The Alpine pistons have another shape not because the valves position. The cross-flow build of the head's chambers and the big size of the valves lead to a bigger volume for the chamber. But the Alpine also has a pretty big compression ratio (10:1). In order to achieve it, the pistons needed to have a hunch on them, to decrease the volume of the chamber. As a conclusion, using a 1400 displacement with flat pistons and an Alpine head, the compression ratio would be around 8:1. No good. If the Alpine pistons are missing, a good solution is the 1600 displacement. This offers a compression ratio of 9:1.

About the gtt engine... For a turbo, the usual head is enough in my opinion. The Alpine turbo was derrived from the atmospheric Alpine. But have in mind that the turbo engine went up to 380 HP by factory (5 Maxi Turbo). This never happened for the gtt.

My opinion... If you're lookin for low gas consumption, leave the engine as it is. The Alpine parts are not for economy. Although the 5 Alpine has a lower consumption than the 12. That's due probably to the lighter body...

This post has been edited by Muttley: 14 Nov 2008, 08:32


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dacia1210galbena
post 19 Nov 2008, 01:59
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Salutare tuturor.OK . Alpina question closed. What engines can be fit without RAR and ITP problems? Only 1400 dacia + factura? None of renault's engines? If not,
let's make the 1400 as well as possible:
block 1400
set motor? How many types are there?
oil pump?
conrods?
head to increase C.R. without shaving? one from renault range?
intake manifold from papuc. A good carb for it?
crankshaft dacia only because flywhell 7 patterns?
sad.gifI hope that max ignition advance is not 20 degree
Multumesc anticipat

P.S. Muttley did you wish to fit a 2000 renault? Some years ago I tought to take the angine from citroen ax gt.They are from the same family.I learn from wikipedia


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Muttley
post 19 Nov 2008, 11:49
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I've finally decided to use the original engine. Actually the engine block. It's much safer concerning legal issues.

If you want a more powerfull engine with resonable consumption, search for a renault equipped with a C2J.
That's 1.4 / 72 HP.


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dacia1210galbena
post 20 Nov 2008, 03:24
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Hello Muttley. Will you use the standard block with your 1600 interior? So renault engine ia allowed,maybe yours is illegal because is from a turbo that has got 105 hp at the least on the paper. I was so happy when I found all renault engine range but more you read more you understand that something is wrong,a lot of mistake really.The engine adviced by you(according wikipedia.it)has 72 hp 104Nm at 3500 carb double throttle(good +2 NM at the same rpm,you can save little fuel too).It comes from r s5 gts,gte,ts. Then I cecked on my 25 years old magazine to see what cars had 72 hp.The list:r 9tse,11gts,tse,electronic and automatica(there is an electronic in bursa,it wasn't a common car at all).I made the confront between r9 gtl and tse.The first (always 1397cc)has 60hp with urban consuption 7.4l/100km while the second 8.8l.I can't undestand:different camshafts or wrong by magazine?
I think to open the second carb throttle tou have to kick down over 3/4.It doesn't happen in city traffic.
So I'll wait for a good occasion,if it'll come.
My other project:
wathever 1400 block
head and all good part from c1g block:9.25 C.R. 1237cc from s5sr,tr,gtr,9c,tc,tl,tle,
11c,tc or 19 tr(simpler)
double carb from renault or citroen peugeot without careing too much


Take a look at my other post
multumesc


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Muttley
post 20 Nov 2008, 10:21
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I don't understand why you are saying that my engine is illegal. Perhaps you didn't paid attention when reading my topic. My engine is legal, since I've used the original Dacia engine block.

As others have already told, for a Dacia engine:
- 1600 cmc (it requires a 1397 engine block at least, the 1289 cannot accomodate the larger cilynders)
- C2J camshaft
- Dacia 1397 head or C2J head (also 1397 but higher CR) - both will do around 1:10 CR with 1600 displacement, no shaving required
- Dacia papuc intake manifold (if using Dacia head) or C2J intake manifold (if using C2J head). But have in mind that if you use the C2J head, the exhaust won't fit on Dacia, it needs modifications.
- C2J carburettor
- ignition - difficult, ain't got a clue...
This combination (recap - 1.6, 10:1, camshaft, double carburettor) will give you around 85 HP.

Note: I understand from your nickname that you have a 1200ccm engine. It's no good. You need a 1400 at least (see the case of the C2J), ant after that you can increase to 1600 if necessary.

Otherwise, you can always go looking for another engine and fit it in. 5 Alpine, 5 Alpine turbo, 5 gtt, 18 turbo, etc. It won't be legal, but here is where you decide if this bothers you or not.


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dacia1210galbena
post 21 Nov 2008, 04:39
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To Muttley
First of all,I must thank you,you're very kind than sorry I understood(wrong) that you used r5 gtt block.Unfortunately I haven't got any Dacia.Here the memory of dacia 1300 is lost.I saw a 1310 italian plated 3 or 4 years ago.It was the first and the only one. 2years ago I rented a dacia berlina in Ploiesti so I knew better the car and its engine.It runs on gpl( italian mariani system:never earned here).This summer I saw a twingo engine on the ground at the repair's and I considered it the same apart the displacement.I used to think that renault engines were sohc for a long time because my father had a r 1.6 diesel.Your help is precious,in fact who knew about different manifolds.
Your 1600 combination is a ph34r.gif 1400 stroked to 1600 I tried to calculate CR 10,13 approx maybe because I don't care the value of gasket
My combination had to be if possible original 1400 with c1g head CR 10,32
Today I tought that is possible to take off some alu(2cc)from the head chamber near spark plug(is it a good idea?)
If there is a little difference between 1400 and 1600 consuption,I could prefer 1600 like you.Theese cars must run on gpl unfortunately,sometimes on 100 octane benzina.Maybe there's agip blue in Romania too.


there was a 1310 ms for the italioan market 25 years ago.Do you know something?
What about dacia delta ...?
Mersi,salutare

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Muttley
post 21 Nov 2008, 09:44
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If you don't own a Dacia... What's all the trouble for?


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dacia1210galbena
post 11 Nov 2012, 21:50
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Hello.
I found the spec of a 68hp C2J engine.

lefreeman_1124656655_courbe_puissance__small_.jpg ( Size: 35.67k ) Number of downloads: 908


Who knows different camshafts?
Is that used for tuning?
Thanks in advance.
Bye.


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4x4
post 11 Nov 2012, 22:46
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After 4 years, did you finally manage to buy a Dacia?


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dacia1210galbena
post 12 Nov 2012, 16:34
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Hello.
Somebody I know is trying to get a license as car trader,if we're lucky he'll get the license plate for dealer.
I'm thinking of a trip in Romania and to buy a Dacia.
Even if I don't get the italian plate and avoid to pay RCA and tax I'll be able to use sometimes the car with the dealer palte.
I'll haven't to care the RAR or whatelse for little tuning.
Let's hope.
Bye.


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dacia1210galbena
post 17 Nov 2012, 22:09
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Hello.
Does somebody use parts from Volvo 340 for little improvement?
I know that it's hard to find nowdays but is the only car that fit the same engine in the same way...

motor_de_volvo_340.jpg ( Size: 84.59k ) Number of downloads: 932


Is there a 72 hp version?
Bye.


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dacia1210galbena
post 5 Dec 2012, 23:26
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Hello.
Can anybody spend some words for the programmable ignition by mihai1677 and diacunuliviu.please?

ok_1815.jpg ( Size: 22.63k ) Number of downloads: 880


Dual map programmed by the hand controller.
Knock sensor.
CDI or TCI ignition module.
I don't understand about trigger source...
Breaker point from old standrd distibutor or renix flywheel... Is it a wheel decoder ignition too?
Can it use the 44-2-2 trigger wheel?
Anything else about it?
Thanks in advance.
Bye.


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maho
post 6 Dec 2012, 16:15
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Why don't you contact directly the two users by PM ? They should be most qualified for that ... unsure.gif


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dacia1210galbena
post 6 Dec 2012, 18:08
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Hello.
Thank you,maho.
You're right. I tried to sens a pm last summer but I wasn't able,once,twice...
I don't know why,maybe I haven't got enough posts to sens a pm or someting like this...
I'll wait and then I'll retry by pm...
Bye.


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maho
post 6 Dec 2012, 18:45
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With pleasure.
You now can send pm, because you have more than 25 posts (minimum required).
Bye, and good luck.

This post has been edited by maho: 7 Dec 2012, 10:33


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dacia1210galbena
post 9 Dec 2012, 22:09
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Hello.
Thank you,maho.
Now I know why and it's ok too.
Bye.


Atentie! Vine furia galbena!

100_2080.jpg ( Size: 164.03k ) Number of downloads: 833


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dacia1210galbena
post 2 Oct 2014, 23:30
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Hello.
I discovered that in Brazil was made the CHT engine.

Pampa.jpg ( Size: 129.67k ) Number of downloads: 65


motor_cht.jpg ( Size: 166.44k ) Number of downloads: 70


It's derivated from Renault C but it was improved by Ford.
I'm still looking for further infos.
Bye.


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dacia1210galbena
post 31 Oct 2015, 19:06
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Hello.
How many 1.4 and 1.6 are there?
I think a lot...
I just saw three on a picture showing a page of a workshop, then I saw another picture with other code numbers.
The 1.4 block is 102-xx bore 76mm x 77mm stroke.
They have different compressio ratios according engine code.
The 1.6 block is 106-xx bore 77mm x 83,6mm stroke.
They can have different compressios ratio too but the power is always the same.
It takes a 1.4 for upgrade or tuning.
Can fit the 77mm cylinders without boring the block?
How many cylinder heads are there? What are the differences between 1.4 and 1.6 heads?
Once upon a time I saw two different combustion chambers but I can't find the pictures anymore.
I know that intake valve is 1mm bigger on the 1.6 head.
Every piece of advice about block,head,camshaft,cranksfaft,distributor is welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Bye.

1 Nov 2015, 16:58:
Hello.
1.4 and 1.6 cylinders have the same external diameter.
If I understood the conrods are the same for all engines.
It takes just the 1.6 crankshaft to icrease stroke on 1.4 block.
I thought about piston height,1.6 one must be storter than 1.4 one.
Stroke is increased of 6,6 mm so piston must be 3,3mm shorter to maintain the same height.
I don't know about lower and higher compression ratio engines,have they got different pistons or heads?
It was told about camshaft too, always the same for 1.3,1.4 and 1.6 engines,270° duration for intake and exhaust.
Maybe tehere are other camshafts according the year?
I found the picture of a head from a 1.4 injected one.

combustion_chamber.JPG ( Size: 29.74k ) Number of downloads: 35


1.4 head or 1.6 one shaved owing to bigger intake valve?

Shaving can be a problem to fit without other working, for exemple the position of that bracket on the head cahanges.

side.JPG ( Size: 25.53k ) Number of downloads: 26


I looked for oem Dacia ignition distributor but I couldn't find on the maker site, I forget about them, there were some info about codes and ignition curves.
Maybe they stopped to make ignition and electric parts for old Dacia...
Bye.









1 Nov 2015, 19:30:
Hello.
Sorry,I was wrong about camshaft duration.
I saw 90° but it's something different,unfortunately I'm not expert.

valves.JPG ( Size: 43.01k ) Number of downloads: 31


That's the camshaft.

camshaft.JPG ( Size: 39.28k ) Number of downloads: 20


Maybe there's a cam From Renault that have 270° exhaust duration.
Bye.




2 Nov 2015, 03:15:
Hello.
I found two different ignition distributors for 13xx, of course there are other distributors.

distributors.PNG ( Size: 6.49k ) Number of downloads: 17


advance_degree.PNG ( Size: 43.97k ) Number of downloads: 10


centrifugal_advance.PNG ( Size: 41.87k ) Number of downloads: 14


They show the graphic of just one vacuum canister.

vacuum_advance.PNG ( Size: 14.04k ) Number of downloads: 13


I found another 13xx manual that shows three diffrent distributors.
I think that IEPS 3230 is the equivalent of Ducellier 3920.

distributors.PNG ( Size: 6.49k ) Number of downloads: 17


engines.PNG ( Size: 85.92k ) Number of downloads: 11


model_engine.PNG ( Size: 117.89k ) Number of downloads: 11


ignition_distributors.PNG ( Size: 106.41k ) Number of downloads: 9












This post has been edited by dacia1210galbena: 2 Nov 2015, 03:15

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Ducellier.PNG ( Size: 9.37k ) Number of downloads: 16


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dacia1210galbena
post 3 Nov 2015, 23:05
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Hello.
That's from a 1300 manual.

810_02__810_99.PNG ( Size: 64.7k ) Number of downloads: 16


1300_engine.PNG ( Size: 16.26k ) Number of downloads: 13


The camshaft is little differernt.

camshaft_1300.PNG ( Size: 53.76k ) Number of downloads: 9


I was wrong about ignition advance.

ignition_distributor_1300.PNG ( Size: 2.69k ) Number of downloads: 9


centrifugal_advance_1300.PNG ( Size: 55.37k ) Number of downloads: 9


Degree and rpm are on the distributor so on the engine are x2.
It's a lot of ignition advance.









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vacuum_advance_1300.PNG ( Size: 47.38k ) Number of downloads: 14


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post 5 Nov 2015, 03:23
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Hello.
Probably the combustion chamber of 1300 engines is like that.

1.JPG ( Size: 39.45k ) Number of downloads: 17


I couldn't find all heads, that's for 1300.

1300_head.JPG ( Size: 46.87k ) Number of downloads: 16


According you is it right as general guide?

I'm still looking for other heads from 1.4 and 1.6 and ignition curves.

2.JPG ( Size: 52.28k ) Number of downloads: 15


3.JPG ( Size: 40.58k ) Number of downloads: 12


4.JPG ( Size: 63.31k ) Number of downloads: 10


5.JPG ( Size: 43.72k ) Number of downloads: 10


What rebuilding kit and crankshaft do you recommend?
Thank you.
Bye.















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post 6 Nov 2015, 23:45
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Hello.
I found the Nova manual,is tehere a 1300 too?
The same camshaft,bigger intake valves for 1.6, two different compressio ratio.

Nova.JPG ( Size: 36.74k ) Number of downloads: 10


I'm not sure, 1.4 and 1.6 share the same clutch,bigger than 1300 one, 1300 and 1.4 share the same gearbox.

engines.JPG ( Size: 84.61k ) Number of downloads: 6


camshaft.JPG ( Size: 37.26k ) Number of downloads: 5


cylinder.JPG ( Size: 48.02k ) Number of downloads: 4


Three different distributors.

ignition_distributors.JPG ( Size: 81.22k ) Number of downloads: 6


distributor_ignition_curves.JPG ( Size: 25.73k ) Number of downloads: 6


3239.JPG ( Size: 76.67k ) Number of downloads: 6


3332.100.JPG ( Size: 77.09k ) Number of downloads: 4


3334.JPG ( Size: 71.89k ) Number of downloads: 4


Bye.
















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post 8 Nov 2015, 22:53
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Hello.
Volvo engines.

B14.jpg ( Size: 30.93k ) Number of downloads: 11


Bye.


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post 24 Nov 2015, 03:36
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Hello.
I found the spec of the camshaft from C2J 72hp, there are 68hp C2J too.

super5.JPG ( Size: 60.6k ) Number of downloads: 22


72hp.JPG ( Size: 61.99k ) Number of downloads: 21


68hp.JPG ( Size: 60.66k ) Number of downloads: 15


60hp.JPG ( Size: 61.13k ) Number of downloads: 6


The same camshaft for C1J and 68hp C2J.
I took only 1.4 engines, there are littler engines too,I don't know if they fit too.

42hp.JPG ( Size: 57.83k ) Number of downloads: 7


47hp.JPG ( Size: 56.78k ) Number of downloads: 5


55hp.JPG ( Size: 58.88k ) Number of downloads: 6


There's the 1.4 turbo engine too but I'm not interesting in it.

120hp.JPG ( Size: 67.94k ) Number of downloads: 6


There are ignition curves too, I spotted C33 and C34 like on Dacias.

distributors.JPG ( Size: 59.07k ) Number of downloads: 10


distributors_1.JPG ( Size: 14.76k ) Number of downloads: 6


engine_C1E_752.JPG ( Size: 51.53k ) Number of downloads: 6


engine_C1E_B_765.JPG ( Size: 64.63k ) Number of downloads: 6


centrifugal_advance.JPG ( Size: 31.77k ) Number of downloads: 6


distributor_1.JPG ( Size: 41.82k ) Number of downloads: 6


distributor_2.JPG ( Size: 64.8k ) Number of downloads: 4


vacuum_advance.JPG ( Size: 36.19k ) Number of downloads: 4


vacuum_advance_1.JPG ( Size: 46.77k ) Number of downloads: 5


vacuum_advance_2.JPG ( Size: 61.15k ) Number of downloads: 6


Bye.


































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dacia1210galbena
post 12 Feb 2016, 14:21
Post #29


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Group: Members
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 August 07
From: Italy




Hello.
I found partial datas about R 19 and Trafic mechanical distributors.

distributor_R_19.JPG ( Size: 19.96k ) Number of downloads: 9


Renault_Trafic.JPG ( Size: 24.13k ) Number of downloads: 10


Bye.


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