Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ Tyres for Logan

I know that it works better on drive axle but it's still summer right? In late october, or when outside temperature drops below 10 C I'll put 'em on drive axle. The best combination is 4 summer and 4 winter tyres, but I can't afford that, so I suppose that 2 summer tyres on rear axle and 2 winter tyres on drive axle in winter is better than 4 summer tyres

I know that it works better on drive axle but it's still summer right?
In late october, or when outside temperature drops below 10 C I'll put 'em on drive axle.
The best combination is 4 summer and 4 winter tyres, but I can't afford that, so I suppose that 2 summer tyres on rear axle and 2 winter tyres on drive axle in winter is better than 4 summer tyres

IF I win the Lotto I will buy you 4 winter and 4 summer (If)
Stu

And if I win the Lotto, I'll buy a BMW for myself, and to both of you I promise to buy 4 of both winter and summer tyres + 4 aluminum alloy wheels

I'll even let you both choose make and model of the tyres!

This post has been edited by g100sic: 14 Sep 2007, 20:59

and a crate of beer !!!
Stu

If grandma had balls.......

We do not have German salaries here, but german tyres have German prices+taxes

For example, I'm MD and my salary is 400 euro.
UG7 in Germany costs at e-bay about 50-65 euro, in Serbia UG7 costs 75 euro etc etc

PS I already have alloy wheels, but I could use some for my old Kadett

This post has been edited by Keka: 14 Sep 2007, 23:33

A question for drivers from Serbia...

I am thinking about installing the Tigar Wintera tyres (4 pcs) for the upcoming winter period. Does anybody have experineces with these tyres? Are they OK for Logan or I should go for Sava Eskimo tyres? Though I believe that Wintera is a decent tyre for roads in former YU...

Any experiences with Fulda winter tyres?

How do they rate against, say, Continental or Goodyear... or Sava maybe?

<span class='edit'>19 Nov 2007, 22:14:</span>
In my city there are 2 types of Fulda winter tyres available, Kristall Montero and Kristall Supremo. Montero costs around 60 EUR, and the price for Supremo is exactly the same as for Goodyear Ultragrip 7+, that is around 75 EUR.

I looked up Fulda site, and there they state Supremo tyres as high performance, high speed (H and V speed index, 210 and 240 kmph respectively). Montero is rated as speed index T or max 190 kmph, which is more then enough for Logan.

<span class='edit'>19 Nov 2007, 23:32:</span>
And Goodyear declares its Ultragrip 7+ as speed index T, same as cheaper Fulda Montero.

This post has been edited by g100sic: 20 Nov 2007, 00:34

I bought Fulda Kristall Montero and, in cold icy weather, they are great in comparison to Michelin Energy. I own Logan for just 2 months, and I got Michelin Energy with it. I often drive at night, and I noticed that sometimes I have a feeling that the car isn't stable in turns. So, after only 1000 km went for a change of tires. Wanted Sava Eskimo S3 or Goodyear, but the dealear had only Fuldas on stock (and I don't like to wait).

After changing 185/65R15 Michelin Energy with 185/65R15 Fulda Kristall Montero - big improvement. Only negative size is more noise - I know everybody says Logan is pretty loud because of no insulation and lousy tires, but I didn't hear Michelin tires, but Fulda's are loud.

BTW Fulda and Sava are in Goodyear group.

test reports Fulda KRISTALL MONTERO

Average of 49 completed tests &Oslash; Score 2.8

Grip in dry conditions Score 2.33
Braking in dry condtions Score 2.39
Grip in wet conditions Score 2.82
Braking in wet condition Score 2.86
Grip in snow Score 3.10
Comfort Score 3.12
Tyre noise (in car) Score 3.14
Tyre noise (external) Score 3.16
Tyre wear Score 2.84
Kilometers driven 19.145 km

Scoring:
1: In this characteristic the tyre is best
6: In this characteristic the tyre is not acceptable.


test reports Fulda KRISTALL SUPREMO

Average of 24 completed tests &Oslash; Score 2.3

Grip in dry conditions Score 2.00
Braking in dry condtions Score 2.00
Grip in wet conditions Score 2.62
Braking in wet condition Score 2.62
Grip in snow Score 2.67
Comfort Score 2.12
Tyre noise (in car) Score 2.00
Tyre noise (external) Score 2.08
Tyre wear Score 1.88
Kilometers driven 17.604 km


test reports Continental WinterContact TS 810

Average of 35 completed tests &Oslash; Score 2.0

Grip in dry conditions Score 1.71
Braking in dry condtions Score 1.83
Grip in wet conditions Score 1.94
Braking in wet condition Score 2.06
Grip in snow Score 2.31
Comfort Score 2.09
Tyre noise (in car) Score 1.83
Tyre noise (external) Score 2.09
Tyre wear Score 1.94
Kilometers driven 16.356 km


test reports Goodyear ULTRA GRIP 7


Average of 68 completed tests &Oslash; Score 1.6

Grip in dry conditions Score 1.68
Braking in dry condtions Score 1.71
Grip in wet conditions Score 1.54
Braking in wet condition Score 1.56
Grip in snow Score 1.28
Comfort Score 1.68
Tyre noise (in car) Score 2.07
Tyre noise (external) Score 2.15
Tyre wear Score 2.03
Kilometers driven 11.076 km

Those results were taken from www.tyretest.com It is clear that Goodyear UG7 is the best winter tyre according to driver opinion across Europe.

Goodyear UG7+ is the winner in most tests. On the test you found Fulda Montero gets lousy marks. But, ADAC test ( http://www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winte...cePageID=195660 ) gives pretty good marks for Montero and Sava Eskimo S3 although these 2 tires are much cheaper than those you regard as best. And they are better than some other pricier tires (Pirelli, Bridgestone). Also, in bigger tire test ( http://www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winte...cePageID=195661 ) Kristall Supremo got lousy marks.

So, if you wan't to buy cheap but good, Sava Eskimo S3 and Fulda Kristall Montero are pretty good.

Actually, after some running around the city, I found a shop with a fantastic deal for Michelin Alpin A3 (30% off the regular price), so it's decided ! I'll get them for a price somewhat higher then GoodYear UG7+, but the salesman told me that there is a lifetime warranty on Michelin tyres (for all other imported makes they give only 6 months of warranty)! The only problem was that they didn't have them in store in the dimensions for Logan, but they promised they will get them by tuesday.

BTW, during my shopping I did a little checking by my own hand. I pressed my thumb against a sidewall of every type of tyre, and Michelin had by far the strongest sidewall of all!

What this lifetime warranty includes? And what's the price? Can you please tell me what's about sidewall stiffness?

I suppose it is like any warranty, "materials and workmanship blablabla...", except that it covers entire usable lifetime of the tyre. Of course, I'm well aware that if you apply for it, you will have to prove that the defect is not caused by hitting some pothole, driving on flat, or some other abuse, that they will certainly deduct from the refund the percentage of wear, but at least you can apply at any time.

The price is around 80 EUR.

Sidewall stiffness should be an indication of the strength of the inner structures of the tyres (but not necessarily, I admit), since this is the thinest part of the tyre. It is contradictory to the smoothness of the ride, but is useful for the transfer of power from the engine to the surface (and the same goes for braking too), direction handling, and for the durability on bad (plus) frozen roads in the winter, which is more important than the smoothness during the winter season.

For example, most so called "run flat" tyres, achieve this feature by having sidewalls strong enough to be self-supporting.

And, soft plus under-inflated tyre was ultimately found responsible for tumbling the Logan in that notorious ADAC test!

This post has been edited by g100sic: 25 Nov 2007, 17:49

Ne mogu da verujem da ima srba na ovom forumu. Bas mj je drago. Izvinite kako pisem al nisam pisao odavno i sam zaboravio...pisem romuski...ja sam samo pola srbin.

This post has been edited by vladyautomobile: 25 Nov 2007, 19:04

Dobro došao brate Srbine, pa makar i samo do pola
Internet ne zna za granice!
Ali baš zbog toga moramo svi ovde da pišemo samo na engleskom.

And a translation for others:

Welcome brother Serb, even only just half-brother
Internet knows no borders!
But it is because of that, that all of us have to write here in English only.

Sorry...my translation too:
"I can't belive that there are serbians on this forum. I'm realy glad. Excuse my writing but i haven`t wrote for a long time...i'm writing in romanian...I am half serbian "

So, a pair of Michelin Alpin A3 it is, on the front wheels, since yesterday!
Conversion rate for Euro went up, so it cost me even under 80 EUR each, with no extra charges for balancing and mounting!

Now I can only wait for some snow...

This post has been edited by g100sic: 1 Dec 2007, 18:11

g100sic, i really dont care what others will tell you, who are actually trying to sell
you something (incl their ideas), but winter tyres only on the front are either useless
or even dangerous. there are a million reason for this.

talk to actual professionals in any country, drivers that drive in real winter (sweden/
finnland/canada), talk to rallye drivers - all will confirm this. this has been a discussion
amongst 'professionals' since the early 60's when spike tyres were introduced, and
later again forbidden.

i am TOTALLY aware this is also, and more so here in the balkans, a money issue.
and i am not insensitive to this, not at all. but four really cheap (35E/ea) winter
tyres of any sorts (korean, or good italian re-threaded) are MUCH better than two
top tyres in the front only. this plus sensible driving will get you through any winter,
two good winter tyres in front, two summer tyres in the rear will get you into the
next ditch (if you are lucky ...).

greetings - heinz -

PS: when did the xchange rate jump? had been solidly just below 80 (market) for the
past 6 months - must have happend just after i passed through a week ago.

PPS: where in SR will you be saturday/sunday 15/16dec?
want to have some kind of one-coffee cup-dacia-club-mini-meeting somewhere?


This post has been edited by heinz57g: 2 Dec 2007, 21:14

@heinz57g:

I appreciate very much your good intentions, but without digging deep into tech details my common sense tells me that 2 wrongs and 2 rights are better than 4 wrongs, especially if it is allowed by law! It is also very arguable if 4 low quality cheaper winter tyres (read: inherently longer stopping distance) are better then 2 good quality summer and 2 good quality winter tyres. And I don't want to spare words on rethreaded tyres, those are a big NO-NO in my book!!! Anyway, what people say is one thing, and what test results show is another. The best way to disperse such a mythical debate would be if you had any references to some tests that prove the point.

Anyway, I don't intend to use my Logan anywhere outside the city during the winter, and most certainly will not engage in some rally driving up and down the mountains ... So, these winter tyres will serve mostly to relax and preserve at least a pair of summer ones for the next season . And, as you made a good point, I will rely mostly on sensible driving !

Regarding the exchange rate, it started rising some 2 weeks ago, and hit a high of 86 a week ago, but is slowly going down again.

And as for my whereabouts on 15/16 dec., it is a matter for a private message .

g100sic, sorry you are wrong wrong wrong, and anybody who KNOWS will confirm this.

>> common sense tells me that 2 wrongs and 2 rights are better than 4 wrongs

wrong. very much so, specially since the 4 wrongs should be 4 mediums.

>> especially if it is allowed by law!

there are plenty of countries where suicide is allowed by law, even assisted suicide. be my guest.

>> also very arguable if 4 low quality cheaper winter tyres (read: inherently
>> longer stopping distance) are better then 2 good quality summer and 2
>> good quality winter tyres

what a nonsense! you are talking about stopping distance, whereas the wrong combination already
has your turned over on your back.

>> don't want to spare words on rethreaded tyres, those are a big NO-NO in my book!!!

YOUR book? why then in many test a good rethreaded many times beats a cheap new one? why are
rethreaded ones (M+S) so popular in countries where it really counts?

>> The best way to disperse such a mythical debate

yes, thats what it has been for years.

>> if you had any references to some tests that prove the point

yes i have, 40++ years and 3+million kms of my own driving, 15 as a ralley driver, 10 as a test
driver, 25 as a driving instructor for commercial drivers (dont add the years, they run parallel), and
100's of collegues who will tell you the same. tray talking to an (honest) tire specialist, or a manufacturer.
or the police. or an automobile club i a country where snow is an issue.

>> Anyway, I don't intend to use my Logan anywhere outside the city during the winter

worse: it might be icy, and off you go, even at slow speed, the rear of your car will overtake you.

>> most certainly will not engage in some rally driving

i know it makes no sense, and i have seen so many heated 'pub and beer' discussions on this, but any
rally driver will put the good tires in the rear, and the bad ones (YES, even on front wheel drive, and
even in winter), on the front.

PLEASE DONT ASK ME WHY: just try it on a wet or slipery surface on an enclosed place. you find out QUICKLY.

>> will serve mostly to relax

you think a few months in a hospital are relaxing? what does yr family think?

>> preserve at least a pair of summer ones for the next season

and then you mix again?

>> I will rely mostly on sensible driving !

sorry if i end this with what might seem a rude sentence: try thinking first.

greetings - heinz -

And as for my whereabouts on 15/16 dec., it is a matter for a private message .

[/quote]

I think Heinz wants to know where you are in case he is in the area and would like to avoid meeting you on the road with your Cheap Boots
Get real and get 4 of the same tyres for the car
READ THIS

Are snow tyres dangerous?
When used for their intended purpose snow tyres provide better grip than traditional summer tyres in cold weather, ice and snow.

Snow tyres will provide less grip in non-winter conditions than summer tyres. If snow tyres and summer tyres are mixed on the same vehicle, the different degrees of grip can make the vehicle unbalanced and difficult to control in an emergency or during hard braking.

The mixing of snow tyres and summer tyres on the same vehicle is not recommended under any circumstances.

Stu

regarding mixture of tires, i consulted with another friend of mine. he does not want to appear here
and comment, as he actually works for the tire industry, but i may quote the politer part of his remarks:

'' ... and the mixture of Winter and summer will just lead to one place ... well two in fact, that is a ditch
or the graveyard. Some people will not listen so I would not bother, but I should look for some winter
accident photos, based on exact those reasons and circumstances, that may cure them ... ... ''

some more quotes:

'' ... even if you had front wheel drive cars, and you only want to replace the front two snow tires, chances
are you're going to feel the affects very strongly ...

... they're going to get out of your driveway, but when you are trying to stop and turn, they're going to
turn, but the back end of the car is going to come around ...

... under any circumstances, shell out the cash to buy 4 totally new matching snow tires ... as all of the
tire dealers we talked with agree it's better to not use snow tires at all than to mix and match them ... ''

no more comment from my side.

greetings - heinz -

This post has been edited by heinz57g: 6 Dec 2007, 22:16

No Money for tyres ~??

This could be you
Sorry but thats life Short and sweet
if you put the right shoes on then its maybe a lot longer
Stu


ok this is alcohol related but just as stupid

7 Dec 2007, 20:37:
7 downloads and no comments ??
have i shocked you
stu

This post has been edited by martin245: 7 Dec 2007, 21:37

Attached File(s)
 ATT00001.zip ( 2.07mb ) Number of downloads: 177

Shit happens, sadly but truthfully and also undeniably, being guilty for it as in this case, or not!

If a person thought about it, only about it, and nothing but about it all the time, he/she would surely end up very quickly in a nut-house! That is why we developed a defense mechanism "shit happens to others", for sanity reasons. Of course, it doesn't mean that we should not do anything in our power to prevent it.

Now, regarding past couple of posts...

Stu, you can call me ignorant, you can even call me stupid (you may actually really have higher IQ than me) for talking about something I don't know much about, I won't mind! But I do mind when you call me cheap, and I already told you so. I paid my Logan somewhat over 10 times my net salary, and you be honest and say how much you paid yours in your net salary! I bought (only) 2 winter tyres, (but top quality!) out of my honest belief that I did right (respect to Heinz for pointing out to me that I'm wrong, in hes rude but well intentioned manner), and I paid for them 1/6th of my salary. And even if I did know that I was wrong, I still wouldn't buy 4 cheap ones if I couldn't afford better! This month I also paid 1/6th of my salary for the registration, some 1/3rd for Casco insurance, somewhat more then 1/5th for my daughter's skis, and 1/10th for loan payment for the car... You do the math yourself what's left, then call me cheap again!

You seam to criticize just for the sake of criticism itself. I could do the same, but I don't want to. It points nowhere, only causes bad feelings.

g100sic, you actually argued in MY cause, tks. specially with a (politely put) tight money situation, you cannot
afford things to go wrong financially, can you?

other people, ditching their car, will just smile, have it fixed or even buy a new one. it will affect their finances,
to a degree, but not kill them financially.

if YOU have such unexpeceted expenses, and have to spend a few weeks in hosputal, it can totally destroy
you plans, your family, your future. with most of my friends around here, there is no security blanket, no buffer,
but sometimes the immediate family, to a small degree.

you accounting (the percentage for the daughter should increase!) has also one major flaw: the money you pay
for the casco insurance is pointless. if they, and they will, find out you drive mixed tires, they will PAY OUT NOTHING.

had a similar case in podgorica two years ago, and just now asked a friend of mine in belgrade who sells
insurance, and confirmed this. yes, they dont tell you before, but if you find and read their small print, you
will see it too.

dont mind stu's reactions, i know he has a 'different' way of expressing things, but he means well - and if you read
between the lines, he also knows what he is talking about, never mind the hard-to-get-used-to language. and dont
classify him. if you think he is 'swimming in money', you might be far off. just a guess, but ...

many greetings, and enjoy the weekend - heinz -

PS: did you ever get the PM i send you yesterday?

Heinz, good point for the insurance, I will check this particular case with the insurance company. I have already checked in their written general conditions, and there is no mention at all about a kind of tyres on the vehicle. But generally speaking, that's what Casco insurance serves for - covering both unpredicted events and driver's errors, except for intentional ones with fraudulent purposes.

If nothing is particularly mentioned, they are obliged by the more general laws of the State, that is, the only provision is that the vehicle is technically compliant by law. The law in Serbia (still) allows having special winter tyres only on the driving axle, and even that only when and where there is a sign that the winter equipment is obligatory.

Anyway, you and Stu talk about accidents like it is something automatic, like you start your car, go in the street and in the very first corner you are in the ditch or around a telephone pole! If this was so, I guaranty you that this sad country would have been left without at least 80% of the vehicles in a single day, and that I would be in the remaining 20%. We are talking rather of something that is a unique combination of factors combined together and sequenced in a critical chain of events. We are talking about probability here, for god sake!!!

Now, I know it is dangerous to play with odds in this way, but still... Say you have passed 10 million km so far, and the odds for certain event "X" are 1:1 000 000. Chances are that you have been in situation "X" 10 times so far. Me on the other hand, driving only 10000 km per year, would have crossed less then half a million km throughout my entire life! So, for me chances are 50:50 that I'll never in my life experience an event "X"!

Regarding Stu, I know that he is essentially a good chap. I also understand that he wouldn't hang on this forum if he was "swimming in money", but still my guess is that he is making at least 3-4 times more money then me. I did not want to classify him, he classified me!


This post has been edited by g100sic: 8 Dec 2007, 19:01

That reminds me I must play the lotto today haha
As Heinz says I am not swimming in money in fact I bet we have around the same amount to give out a month
Germany is a very dear country to live and Bad wages and high cost of living
and also dont forget this You may not be "X" but "X" may be in the other car
Stu

This post has been edited by martin245: 8 Dec 2007, 18:57

Stu, in my example "X" is a general event, covering equally "X" in your own car and "X" in a car heading your way, because it doesn't matter for the consequences.

This post has been edited by g100sic: 8 Dec 2007, 19:10

Probability vs. Statistics



QUOTEOn the average, drivers have accidents once every two years. Your last accident was 3 years ago, so you can expect an accident any time now."


Error
Rates of accidents vary greatly with experience, car type, age and health of the driver, driving habits, and so on. National average says close to nothing about your chances of having an accident


Conclusion that may be true
"On the average, drivers have accidents once every two years. If you randomly choose 1000 drivers, you can expect them all together to have had about 5000 accidents over the previous 10 years."

Not so big odds realy

>> insurance, I will check this particular case with the insurance company

they will not tell you. they WILL tell you after the fact, and when they have to pay.

>> they are obliged by the more general laws of the State

have you ever tried to argue with an insurance company? about anything?

>> Anyway, you and Stu talk about accidents like it is something
>> automatic, like you start your car, go in the street and in the
>> very first corner you are in the ditch or around a telephone pole!

good description. with traffic developing the way it does, it at least will be soon that way.

>> this sad country would have been left without at least 80% of the
>> vehicles in a single day

a while ago is saw the statistics for sofia, 1991 or thereabouts, well before they became 'western':
a normal day, apprx 60-80 accidents per day, the day of the first snowfall/ice: 900.

>> that is a unique combination of factors combined together and sequenced
>> in a critical chain of events

perfect. thats the way you are going to explain to your daughter, daddy is in hospital. or worse:
thats how you explain when she is in hospital. tough thinking, and rude again, eh?

>> stu ... but still my guess is that he is making at least 3-4 times more money then me

wrong you are, very wrong. making money is not the point, having money to spend is the one.

>> ... he classified me!

yes. as a fool who drives with a mixture of winter and summer tires. and right he was.

do you have good access to the internet, without time/cost limitations? why dont you google around for
'mixing winter summer tires', 'snow tires' or similar words? if you dont believe us here, have a look
what you find there.

greetings - heinz -