Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ German marketing machine, How to discredit competition...

"Dacia Logan in evaded The General German Automobile Association reports up-to-date of driving dynamics tests with a Dacia Logan. Afterwards the vehicle has itself with one evaded with a speed of 65 km/h estimated. For Renault the estimate is not comprehensible. After present realizations the General German Automobile Association accomplished first two alternate tests according to General German Automobile Association standard with 100 km/h. No problems arose. Subsequently, further alternate exercises took place under spontaneously arbitrarily specified conditions for photo purposes. It came to the behavior described by the General German Automobile Association. The Dacia Logan completed extensive external alternate tests both in automobile technical periodicals and in the context of test travels of the jury "car of the yearly" without problems. Also with numerous internal examinations a perfect handling showed up.

"Dacia Logan in evaded The General German Automobile Association reports up-to-date of driving dynamics tests with a Dacia Logan. Afterwards the vehicle has itself with one evaded with a speed of 65 km/h estimated. For Renault the estimate is not comprehensible. After present realizations the General German Automobile Association accomplished first two alternate tests according to General German Automobile Association standard with 100 km/h. No problems arose. Subsequently, further alternate exercises took place under spontaneously arbitrarily specified conditions for photo purposes. It came to the behavior described by the General German Automobile Association. The Dacia Logan completed extensive external alternate tests both in automobile technical periodicals and in the context of test travels of the jury "car of the yearly" without problems. Also with numerous internal examinations a perfect handling showed up.

on one detailed picture you can see backup tyre (LEFT FRONT) (with low pressure inside) which is turning TO RIGHT over the (felna na srpskom) metal (not over tyre)

idiots, they thought that this story can pass

Logan has devastated some markets.
Krauts are loosing badly,having every right to be jealous,angry,
furious, pissed off, etc.
But to cheat…

Anyhow, if you buy the car and you have some sportive ambitions, you'd better buy some decent tires/rims and maybe a lowered suspension.

Does anyone know if the spare tire had the same size rim as the others?

Does anyone know if the spare tire had the same size rim as the others?

Yes,someone does know
Yes,it has...
But not sure `bout al.rims.

Logan has devastated some markets.
Krauts are loosing badly,having every right to be  jealous,angry,
furious, pissed off, etc.
But to cheat…

I think you are being naive if you think Logan caused any major damage to the German market. At least not yet

And you're being even more so if you think all players on the auto market are playing honestly.

I think you are being naive if you think Logan caused any major damage to the German market. At least not yet

And you're being even more so if you think all players on the auto market are playing honestly.

no no, even a story about logan is enough to start anti campagin about some product. here in serbia,last year in december,there was story about bad electronic in logan. something like "computer often malfunctioning".

"computer often malfunctioning".

Indeed, for some people the "computer often malfunctioning".

P.S. Please replace the "computer" word with "brain".

There are plenty of people who are willing to believe and accept anythig, This is how a new urban myth is born. In most cases, any "advices" heard from various kind of peolple with questionable kwownledge in cars must be treated with caution. Accordingly...ignore them.

Well, according to some marketing guys, there is no such thing as "negative publicity". They say any news appearance of a product can only boost its market awareness.
Then again, marketing is far from being a true science, in my (humble) opinion, so I think we cannot tell whether this ADAC test caused any harm to Logan sales or not.

I think you are being naive if you think Logan caused any major damage to the German market. At least not yet

And you're being even more so if you think all players on the auto market are playing honestly.

Ha,ha,ha….
1.Being so naïve I should have become painter `couse naïve painters (called primitives ?!) earn good money and surely drive better and more expensive cars than LGN, maybe some germanic…
2.The one has raised his head showing nothing but rattlebrainedness.
“Blessed are simple minded,the kingdom of heaven belongs to them…”- the Book
Who mentioned german marker?
And what german marker represents in comparision to south-east europian,asian,african and latino-american markets where LGN indeed targets?
Is it sin to produce nice,cheap car according to found needs?
3.Let us imagine advertisement:
Ja,ja…natürlich…ze everything german,used,few years old,das ist better than brand-new romanian(serbian,russian,english,french etc.)…even hygienic splints…
Thoughts like this has lead to…

This post has been edited by mccoy: 1 Aug 2005, 17:47

Thoughts like this has lead to…

Marketing?

This post has been edited by Boris: 1 Aug 2005, 17:47

Marketing?

What marketing?

mccoy, Logan sales until now add up to a grand total of 100,000 pcs. Compare this to the roughly 10 million which represent the annual sales in Europe and it's about 1%. So, what I intended to suggest is that Logan's impact on auto markets is minimal. Yet. And except for Romania, of course.

This post has been edited by Kramer: 2 Aug 2005, 10:10

What marketing?

If saying that your products are better than other products is not marketing, what is?

mccoy, Logan sales until now add up to a grand total of 100,000 pcs. Compare this to the roughly 10 million which represent the annual sales in Europe and it's about 1%. So, what I intended to suggest is that Logan's impact on auto markets is minimal. Yet. And except for Romania, of course.

Looking at tree,overlooking a forest…
LGN hasn`t been sold everywere in Europe for one year.
Daily production is over 700 units .
Statistics – quite rubber scient ,could be formed like this and like that,
whatever shape one likes.
Open eyes,maybe you will see

Marketing?

Thoughts like this has lead to... World War II

No, romanians are much more peaceful

I dont't know if you've found out:
Yesterday already some car magasine team have made some tests in Bucarest also, and they did not manage to turn over the Logan.
The only reasonable conclusion: the guys from ADAC have chitted...

I dont't know if you've found out:
Yesterday already some car magasine team have made some tests in Bucarest also, and they did not manage to turn over the Logan.
The only reasonable conclusion: the guys from  ADAC have chitted...

Sory, I don't understand how we came to reason in making such a conclusion.

The first team did a test and the result was A.

The second team did a test and the result was B.

After that the only reasonable conclusion is thet the first team cheated?

I'm not saying that the result sould be this or that, but I fail to see the resonable conclusion making.

Sorry!


2 Mccoy

Rest assure that the WWII has nothing to do with the difference of opinion about cars, or other products. Let's not over simplify things, and jump to general conclusions!

The bringing of WWII to a discusion about cars and tests was uncalled and unnecessary.

Actually, there are two tests that have been performed in Romania these days and both showed the same thing: the car skidded but did not topple.

At it only skidded at higher speeds, not at 65km/h.

Here is a link (from the romanian thread) that may be important for our english-speaking friends, too (hope you speak french too ):
http://www.autojournal.fr/essais&p=essaivi...1257051005B0F42
On short - they tested logan in France; they noticed that if the car has alloy rims, the tire will detach from the rim at the end of the manouver. They over-inflated the tire - still the same conclusion. Then they used regular metal rims and everything was ok.
Notice the common point with the ADAC test: at ADAC, too, the tire detached from the alloy rim, so they had to use the spare tire.
One final comment - this phenomenon may be also caused by stiffer suspension for the western europe, it didn't happen at the tests done in Romania.

This post has been edited by vv: 4 Aug 2005, 08:54

Sory, I don't understand how we came to reason in making such a conclusion.

The first team did a test and the result was A.

The second team did a test and the result was B.
....

It's actually worse:

The first team did test A (turns out there wasn't actually a rigurous test watsoever) and had result B.

The second (and third) teams did test C and had the result D.

There is no logical conclusion to extract from this (as you can see, there is also no contradiction anywhere to even suspect that somebody lies).

In my opinion, the whole situation is a mess and there are major weaknesses in the way they performed such tests (there is no way to say that ADAC performed a professional test - all they provided were some photos and a word of advise to german buyers to buy second-hand instead of Logan (that was lame and irresponsible), and also, there is no way to say that Romanian tests can contradict the german tests, since ADAC "tests" were freestyle - "let's get this car upside-down" - and anyone can do that, with any model at any time).

The whole thing is a marketing balloon, and the only thing I could consider realistic is that french test that vv provided in previous post (the link there).

ADAC takes out from thei website the "test" results, romanians have their own tests that turn out fine and everybody is "happy" with no realistic reason, in my opinion (even more absurd in the whole thing is that this "scandal" starts burning almost a year after the model hit the market, and some months after the car started selling in Germany - Way to go, Beavis! Had a good night sleep in the meantime?).

This post has been edited by Lolek: 4 Aug 2005, 10:02

hi from germany

i found a link to this forum in a german car-forum and thought to give you some more information about this adac-"test"

first of all i have to say that the german automobilindustry is more on the "better, bigger, more expensive" way of life (they call it "premium"). the logan was a directly hit into their faces because these crappy, old and cheap car got very good articels in the press. so they went by and started their own "logan" as fast as possible. thats why (for example) volkswagen imports the brazilian fox (it was devoloped and is built there, against the will of the german management)

of course our press is very patriotic (more than in other countries i think) and began to destroy the logan-image (which doesnt exist ). the "autobild"-test was named here. well, that was one of the first. a normal rumanian-model (the cheapest they could get) against a golf IV - of course the logan lost. then the test against the fox (i think it was autobild too), who won the test because he is a VW. ok, i have to say that bild isn't the most objective press we have

to the adac "test":
after i red that i found a hint in a renault-forum about the sparewheel on the test-logan. someone wrote an email to the adac and got a positive answer - they installed the sparewheel because one alu-rim lost his tyre. don't forget: no word about that in the adac-article!
one day later renault answered the adac and demolished the test. the adac used a random track to make some sensational pictures. while that the logan rolled on his roof (because of the sparewheel - a alu rim would never do that!). on the renault-article the adac had nothing to answer and just said "the logan rolled, everything else doesn't matter!". now they want to make a re-test.

in fact the article from the adac-page was removed very fast (you can still find it in the google cache). out of a journalistic point of view it was bulls**t. i guess there is no other word for that.

but you have to say: the german market for the logan is very unimportant in relation to the eastern countries, so i don't think that renault is very annoyed.

Bucklew, welcome on our forum.
Got a question for you: do you think ADAC did right to waste its good reputation and credibility by hacking a test on this rather insignificant model?
I mean wouldn't it have been wiser for them to save this ammunition for scrapping, say, Megane's image?

Hi Bucklew, good to have a german among us, maybe you can clear out some things.

There is a feeling among some romanians (including me ) that all the anti-Logan campaign is not really dedicated to the German market, but to the eastern-european one. And that the german market will not be hit by the fact that people stop buying Passat & buy Logan (stupid to think so!) but by the fact that eastern-europeans stop importing german SH vehicles, and start buying new Logans. This would in turn impact the entire SH market, the buy-back system and could have implication reaching as far as forcing the auto-makers to rethink their strategy. Well, maybe it's not like this, but how do you explain the 'anti-Logan' campain? Really, it's a question that I would like you to answer, I want to hear your thoughts on this issue. One answer may be "there is in fact no anti-Logan campaign", which may be the case, but from your post I understand that you do belive that such a campaign exists.
To put it otherwise: I can understand anything from Bild. I would like to understand how do you explain the lack of profesionalism in the ADAC test, this is really not typical for them. Ah, and in fact - what do you think: did they really manage to flip it over accidentally, or was it intentional? We can see from the french tests that the rubber really detached from the alloy rim - so the first part of the ADAC's explanation seems more than plausible, why wouldn't the second part be true, too?

P.S. BTW - I see from your profile that you are very nationalistic - you own a Clio

This post has been edited by vv: 4 Aug 2005, 13:35

[quote=Boris,3 Aug 2005, 17:46]
Sory, I don't understand how we came to reason in making such a conclusion.

The first team did a test and the result was A.

The second team did a test and the result was B.

After that the only reasonable conclusion is thet the first team cheated?



Actually they performed 2 independent tests, more likely to be described as "moose test".
At 65 kmph there were no problems for the drivers to report. The car has performed OK.
Only at higher speeds (about 80, 90, 100) the back slided. But the car remained on it wheels, no turn over, no nothing...

The ADAC has performed some random test in order to get some spectacular photos, and is seems that the air pressure in the front tyres was also under the normal pressure. The only problem ist that all the media has taken this test as the "Elchtest - the moose test" and jumped into a bad conclusion regarding the Logan...

Anyway, if a professional driver wants to make a car to turn over, he can do this with almost any car on the market... With ESP or not...

do you think ADAC did right to waste its good reputation and credibility by hacking a test on this rather insignificant model?
I mean wouldn't it have been wiser for them to save this ammunition for scrapping, say, Megane's image?

would be better, of course. i don't know why they did that. probably they just wanted good selling headlines. the logan is nearly unimportant in germany (i think they sold only 5000 in a first "wave"), the hype (negative and positive) is much too big. probably they (i mean adac + the german automobilindustry) hope the logan-image goes over to renault.

There is a feeling among some romanians (including me ) that all the anti-Logan campaign is not really dedicated to the German market, but to the eastern-european one.

could be possible. i don't know what your press is doing about the adac-test. the french for example tested the logan (someone posted the link before) and it does not flip.

And that the german market will not be hit by the fact that people stop buying Passat & buy Logan (stupid to think so!) but by the fact that eastern-europeans stop importing german SH vehicles, and start buying new Logans. This would in turn impact the entire SH market, the buy-back system and could have implication reaching as far as forcing the auto-makers to rethink their strategy.

well the old vw-boss (who wanted to put vw in one segment with audi, mercedes and bmw) said that the logan is not needed, used car are better. probably they hoped that the international press goes with the adac (adac = german = good) and the logan-image is demolished in the important markets.

Well, maybe it's not like this, but how do you explain the 'anti-Logan' campain? Really, it's a question that I would like you to answer, I want to hear your thoughts on this issue. One answer may be "there is in fact no anti-Logan campaign", which may be the case, but from your post I understand that you do belive  that such a campaign exists.

i think it is the same old "campain" which is used by most of the press since years. everything, really EVERYTHING, which is made from a non-german brand is useless. no matter if it is the diesel-filter, the old PLIP (infrared) system or the new keyless-system with chip. you should read the first comments to the renault-keyless system (i guess it was in the laguna) which where "we can't see the point". when bmw used the system, it was brilliant. probably they do what they do every time with a non-german product

To put it otherwise: I can understand anything from Bild. I would like to understand how do you explain the lack of profesionalism in the ADAC test, this is really not typical for them.  Ah, and in fact - what do you think: did they really manage to flip it over accidentally, or was it intentional? We can see from the french tests that the rubber really detached from the alloy rim - so the first part of the ADAC's explanation seems more than plausible, why wouldn't the second part be true, too?

the renault-version of the accident (which the adac - indirect - confirmed) was that the adac made the normal "Elch"-Test as it is standard. i don't know if it is european-wide or just a german version. the logan passed these tests with 100km/h. of course it was not the best car (i guess it was the worst one) it turn 180°, but the test was passed. so the adac decided to do some more "testing" and they lost the tyre from one wheel while doing that (like the french). so they installed the sparewheel and wanted to make some spectacular pictures (which you can actually see). they made a much more narrow course and drove it with 65 km/h. in that test the frontwheel (the steel one) got stuck in the ground and so the car flipped. you can even see that the driver is wearing no helmet. so i think they never thought the car flipped. so indeed it was a very extreme situation (how is doing such a test with a sparewheel??)

the adac is right, the car flipped. but its more than unprofessional to a) not say that it was a non-standard course and b ) not to show the sparewheel. they said that the a-pillar collapsed but you have no picture of it, because they wanted to hush up the sparewheel (all pictures are from the passenger-side). beside everything, that is not ok! probably they thought that nobody will be interested about the test-conditions and they wanted some good press. i would really like to know that

P.S. BTW - I see from your profile that you are very nationalistic - you own a Clio

well if you would know the prices of (for example) a vw polo, you would know why

This post has been edited by Bucklew: 4 Aug 2005, 15:53

...
could be possible. i don't know what your press is doing about the adac-test. the french for example tested the logan (someone posted the link before) and it does not flip.
...

Our press got it more or less wrong, there were 2 elch-tests organized (one in collaboration with Top Gear), and the car didn't flip in any of them. So there's an unnecessary "hurray!" going on, with reactions ranging from "ADAC was wrong" to "ADAC lied because germans are afraid of Logan's success" (how silly is that?). The wrong part is that the press insisted on the elch-test, in notes like "of course they lied, Logan passed the elch-test in Sweden with no problems" when actually ADAC's "test" when the car flipped was not a standard elch-test.

The only decent thing that some promoted was that Logan is a low-cost car, it can turn upside-down if you drive it like crazy, so people should take into consideration some care with it (and this idea is so obvious that I never thought I'd actually want somebody to say that in the middle of the rage/enthusiasm and so on...).

Bucklew, we saw the LGN on the driver side too and from the first moment and knew about the spare wheel.


Unfortunatelly everybody here is tempted to blame ADAC, VW, etc and not Renault.
There is one conclusion only: the car has either a suspension or tyre problem and therefore should be handled with care.

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Our press got it more or less wrong, there were 2 elch-tests organized (one in collaboration with Top Gear), and the car didn't flip in any of them. So there's an unnecessary "hurray!" going on, with reactions ranging from "ADAC was wrong" to "ADAC lied because germans are afraid of Logan's success" (how silly is that?). The wrong part is that the press insisted on the elch-test, in notes like "of course they lied, Logan passed the elch-test in Sweden with no problems" when actually ADAC's "test" when the car flipped was not a standard elch-test.

yeah and nobody knows how this test looks like (except the adac). you can nearly flip every car, the turns must only be sharp enough and you must have enough speed

Bucklew, we saw the LGN on the driver side too and from the first moment and knew about the spare wheel.
Unfortunatelly everybody here is tempted to blame ADAC, VW, etc and not Renault.
There is one conclusion only: the car has either a suspension or tyre problem and therefore should be handled with care.

i don't think there is a tyre or suspension problem. as you can see in enough tests the logan doesn't flip with hier standard-tyres. and even not with a sparewheel. i think the adac installed the sparewheel but doesn't check the air-pressure. and that was a bit too low for extreme driving like it was done. a alu rim would have never stucked in the ground like the steel wheel did. probably they should make a warning-sign: "never drive in sweden with the spare wheel"

the adac made some huge mistakes with these test. they even said the wheelbase of the logan is too short and thats why it flipped. but well - there are many, many cars with much shorter wheelbase. a smart musst be flipping at 2km/h according to that conclusion