Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ German marketing machine, How to discredit competition...

No costi, the germans didn't approach the problem right. In fact, I'm surprised that ADAC could be so unproffesional about it. Look at the french guys: when the tire detached from the rim, they re-did the test with higher pressure, then with steel rims. And they reached a conclusion. On the other hand - ADAC detached the tire, but instead of investigating this issue (why? how could they miss this opportunity?) they decided to go on with their photo session. Surprisingly, they had no tape, and only 7 photos - but they rushed to publish the result without giving enough details, without trying to re-do it in order to get a real proof. This really raises a question mark - but on the other hand, maybe they are just stupid, I wouldn't be surprised, I've seen worse About "car has a problem, drive carefully" - I'd say that if you did that manouver, you are lucky if you flip over, you could instead hit a truck that goes on the other lane, or fall off a steep cliff. So when it comes to situations that make you do manouvers like this one, I'd say that rolling over is your last problem "Drive carefully" applies regardless of the test's result. Since this test is (IMO) from start a marketing thing and not a real safety test, it is quite normal to have this kind of reactions.

No costi, the germans didn't approach the problem right. In fact, I'm surprised that ADAC could be so unproffesional about it.
Look at the french guys: when the tire detached from the rim, they re-did the test with higher pressure, then with steel rims. And they reached a conclusion. On the other hand - ADAC detached the tire, but instead of investigating this issue (why? how could they miss this opportunity?) they decided to go on with their photo session. Surprisingly, they had no tape, and only 7 photos - but they rushed to publish the result without giving enough details, without trying to re-do it in order to get a real proof. This really raises a question mark - but on the other hand, maybe they are just stupid, I wouldn't be surprised, I've seen worse

About "car has a problem, drive carefully" - I'd say that if you did that manouver, you are lucky if you flip over, you could instead hit a truck that goes on the other lane, or fall off a steep cliff. So when it comes to situations that make you do manouvers like this one, I'd say that rolling over is your last problem "Drive carefully" applies regardless of the test's result.
Since this test is (IMO) from start a marketing thing and not a real safety test, it is quite normal to have this kind of reactions.

Backlew check the address and first picture above: it's the French test when they lost the tyre from the Al wheel. And they recomand the steel wheel instead.

The Germans also lost one tyre.
How many cars did you hear about, loosing their tyres in tests ?
This is more worrisome than flipping over.

The Germans also lost one tyre.
How many cars did you hear about, loosing their tyres in tests ?
This is more worrisome than flipping over.

i can tell you one guy from a german forum who lost his tyre too - it was a Audi A3

OK than Renault should admit the mistake and learn from it !
This doesn't seem to be the case.

There is one conclusion only: the car has either a suspension or tyre problem and therefore should be handled with care.

The suspension system is OK! The real problem is with the tyres. First Montana(they suck) then Kormoran (still sucks - same tyre profile) ; now i understand they've changed those too, but i don't know the new type...

THE TYRES USED IN ROMANIA ARE NOT THE SAME WITH THE ONES USED IN GERMANY OR FRANCE.

" Following the publication of the results of Auto Journal test, the experts of Renault Technical Centre recreated the test and checked, on Wednesday and Thursday, the causes of the tyre detachment from the wheel rim.

„The tests have been completed in direct cooperation with Continental. The detachment occured after succesive tests, due to strong tire deformation in curves”, declared Dacia PR Monica Popovici for Mediafax news agency.

According to her, Dacia underlined that the test simulated special running conditions, so that, normally, under normal conditions „the tyre and car are perfectly safe”.

„We want to reassure our customers that no problems will arrise”, added Popovici.

courtesy of www.hotnews.ro

This post has been edited by costi: 5 Aug 2005, 12:21

It's actually worse:

The first team did test A (turns out there wasn't actually a rigurous test watsoever)  and had result B.

The second (and third) teams did test C and had the result D.

There is no logical conclusion to extract from this (as you can see, there is also no contradiction anywhere to even suspect that somebody lies).

Now, after reading a few articles and looking at the short film at that french site i think that the test is not valid in a sence of teh moose test.

The only question is was the flipping over of the Logan accidentall and the ADAC took advantage of it in a nonprofessional manner, ar was the flipping over intentional togeher with all the rest.

But that's not that important after all.

look it

http://www.autojournal.fr/essais&p=essaivi...1257051005B0F42

2 Mccoy
Rest assure that the WWII has nothing to do with the difference of opinion about cars, or other products. Let's not over simplify things, and jump to general conclusions!

The bringing of WWII to a discusion about cars and tests was uncalled and unnecessary.

My intention was not to mention WWII at first,
it was between lines for those who read so.

If saying that your products are better than other products is not marketing, what is?

Few words `bout marketing from a point of view of ordinary man..I`ll try to exemplifay

I Company A has a new car A33
“ Our new A33,equipped with ABS,AC …..bla,bla…and it is the best car for that money.”

II Company B..
“Here is our new B 24,with BCG,HCG…bla,bla…and it is the best car in class in the world.”

III Company D…
“Well,this is our new L1,nice,cheap,with R engine,AC…bla,bla…and so

IV Company WV
“Our G5 is the best ...
Ha,ha,look what the peasants from D have done.
Look at that horrible old-fashioned car.
Even our 5-6 years old G4 is much,much better than new L1,which is cleary shown in precise tests.
We make über-cars,we are über…”

+ ( plus ) a little help from a friend performing independent test ...
“ Ups, L is on the roof…”

I wonder where honesty,decency,chastity,sincerity have gone…
To let some “über-subjects” to blame my (our) car,insult my intelligence…
It is necessary to say that such thoughts have strong smell of
official german politics some seventy years ago… And no more WWII

"Whom would you confide trust, safety, hope, belief, pride, love …?
Gorgeous, irresistible French-Romanian virginity
or
used, abused German filthiness ?"

I believe we know the answer

HOTEST UPDATE!
WATCH FOR TV show >SAT< on 21st August on serbian satelite channel RTS at 13:10GMT

On 19th August proffessional tests of Dacia Logan stability were conducted again by leading serbian automotive redaciton SAT MEDIA GROUP, this time in cooperation with acredited laboratory of serbian national automotive club AMSS-CMV. Proffessional measuring equipement was used for measuring of speed and tyre temeprature and preassure, as well as track and high cones according to ISO 3888-1 and ISO 3888-2 standards, on location of military airfiled Batajnica near Belgrade. Tested vehicles were Dacia Logan 1.4 (Montanta tires on steel wheels) and Dacia Logan 1.6 (Michelin tires on aluminium wheels). Vehicles were tested according to ISO 3888-2 (obstacle avoidance), ISO 3888-1 (double lane change) and standard elk-test (italian Quattroruote version), and official results were produced.

SAT MEDIA GROUP filmed complete session with five video cameras (various important angles inclouding in-car camera) and photographed cca 1000 photo pictures. Complete results and recordings will be broadcasted on 21st August on Serbian national television RTS 1 as well as on their satelite chanel at 15:10 Belgrade time (13:10GMT+2) in regular TV show named >SAT< as well as in next issue of serbian automotive revue >SAT PLUS<

This post has been edited by satplus: 21 Aug 2005, 00:49

Complete results and recordings will be broadcasted on 21st August on Serbian national television RTS 1 as well as on their satelite chanel at 15:10 Belgrade time (13:10GMT+2) in regular TV show named >SAT< as well as in next issue of serbian automotive revue >SAT PLUS<

Well, SATPLUS, nothing about these tests? We couldn't see them in Romania, so please a couple of words about them!

Well, SATPLUS, nothing about these tests? We couldn't see them in Romania, so please a couple of words about them! 

Welcome for satplus!
I hope this username belong to stuff from SAT, since such magazine has not official web site, so we didn’t have ability to communicate with this revue, exception using strange and long e-mail, like something@satmediagropuxxx.xxx or similar.

These message looks like advertise, since there is only acknowledgment, but there are no finally results it has effect for domestic market, but what about foreigner countries? I.e. Belgrade time zone is GMT+01:00.

Regarding SAT, magazine is good but not to much. It has attractive titles, but articles are very “thin”, poor with useful information. There are no some special, unknown details or information. For example, one of the previous issues has big title on the cover page “How to get new car for less than 150 EUR” (or something similar, I am not sure). At this time, I was very interested about buying new car, so I has took magazine. I hoped I will find really useful information, but I found only table with data for various bank. Nothing about catches, obligations and other unpleasant thing that has every bank. I can bye few newspapers, look at commercial or go to the banks web sites and found the same data or even more precisely information.

For some reason they have very, very good opinion about Logan and every issue has at least one article about LGN. Unfortunately there is no to much useful information. They made so-called “Super test” for various cars, including Logan. Last test was about maintains. They said service for Logan is good, spare parts are not so expensive and this is the end. They didn’t mention single price, so I still don’t has any idea what “acceptable price” means.

And finally, there is now web site.

Regarding to today’s test, I hope it will be successful. Not because it is preformed by SAT. They have small mismatch, but they are correct and I hope test will be done very professionally. Much stronger reason is I believe in Logan and Renault. Logan has high clearance and I expect Renault take much care about stability and made many serious tests. Track will not be ideal, it is cheap and high car, but it think will stay on the ground “with all four wheels”.

We will see.

They made so-called “Super test” for various cars, including Logan. Last test was about maintains. They said service for Logan is good, spare parts are not so expensive and this is the end. They didn’t mention single price, so I still don’t has any idea what “acceptable price” means.

So, I must say that I am not some representative of SAT PLUS but their real fan and carefull reader who is willing to share his sources with others ... I must also say that you are pretty poor reader NOVAUTO, or you were not reading at all In report from 4th stage of Supertest of Dacia Logan, published in SAT PLUS No. 107 (19th May 2005) there was list of planed maintenance periods for tested Logan 1.4 including prices of servicing and needed parts for all regular maintenance. There were also prices of many specific spare parts you could need in cars life cycle or when damaged in accident, and list of all service stations in Serbia and Montenegro, including their working hours, kinds of service intervention every of them is entitled to do (mechanical /electric /carocerie...) etc. Complete data on maintenance and servicing interventions done on tested vehicle also could be found in same article, together with other useful data form vehicle road book.
If you have read at all - you could see that Supertest consist from six stages (such as analisis of comfort, city usage, road usage, maintenance, ...) with detailed written report on each one, and one final report which gives just previous conclusions and data from tested vehicle road book (km, consumption, maintenance costs, remarks on vehicle behavior...). So, there were many many details about Logan too. It must be that you read just that final one and did not read it carefully...Same goes for your other story - poor reading.

What about the tests? Did they take place? Did the moose survive?

What about the tests? Did they take place? Did the moose survive?

Yes, both driver and moose survive. Speed was about 67Km/h,steel rim, 1.4 and 71km/h, AL rim ,1.6 and Michelin tyres, I think. At this speed track was perfect and it means test is passed. Later they tried with higher speed and there is no any sign that Logan can takover.

I hope Satplus will inform rest of us with details.

This post has been edited by novauto: 22 Aug 2005, 22:56

What about the tests? Did they take place? Did the moose survive?

Sorry for late reply, but I was trying to get some more data from SAT PLUS by phonecalls before next issue goes on sale on Thurstday... Here goes the story...

Few months ago, during Supertest of Logan 1.4 revue SAT PLUS examined stability and maneuverability of Logan on professionally build proving ground where elk-test was one of exams. They also, as they usually do, gave opportunity to their readers to do the same - about 50 ordinary people were invited to drive Logan on same proving ground and they also gave their comments... Watching report in TV show one could see that in all conducted tests vehicle did not show any signs of serious or unexpected instability, meaning that car was controllable with no serious roll over hazards when car was driven in reasonable manner up to 80 kph on its speedometer. So readers as well as journalists had similar opinion: Logan had fair stability for its class... All data, comments and photos from that testing were also published in SAT PLUS.

About month ago SAT broadcasted comparison test of Logan and Lada 110 when same stability tests were done and result was similar - fair stability of Logan.

If your were watching Serbian TV show SAT yesterday afternoon you could see for yourself whole professional ISO test procedure conducted by SAT PLUS and accredited laboratory of Serbian auto club AMSS-CMV. You could also see vehicles behavior with Montana and Michelin tyres during all three tests in slow motion from various angles and get basic data on speeds, pressures and temperatures.

First test was ISO 3888-2 (obstacle avoidance) and first Logan (1.4, Montana tyres on steel rims, 2 Bar pressure) passed test with entering speed of 67,9 kph. You could note that tail of the car swinged but did not hit any cones, and car exited test track in expected straight line. As they tested on higher speeds up to 82 kph, car just could not hold that track and slided sometimes very hevily and hited many cones. It looked to me like car will not rollover if you do not force it intentionaly by some hard manuvering and breaking (this test by ISO rules should be done without any breaking). Other Logan (1.6 on Michelin tyres and AL rims, 1.9 Bar pressure) passed test with enetering speed of 71,4 kph.

Second test was elk test in variant of Quattroruote (SAT PLUS is partner of Quattroruote and often participates in their Italian tests). First Logan (Montana) passed with 67,2 kph and the other with 68,3 kph. Further tests showed more of sliding, but allways on three wheels...

Third test was ISO 3888-1 (double lane change) when Logan (Montana) passed with 111,1 kph and the other with similar speed also... Tyre colapse did not happen in any of their tests but on that slow motion sequences one could see that tyres were bent hardly by that cornering force and got scratched sides as expected...

Most important thing I saw on SAT`s documentary is: if Logan goes into test with measured speed of cca 80 kph - it does not sudenlly get rolling on top but sliedes and hits cones with at least three wheels on the ground... That in-car camera showed very fast and precise, above average reactions of test-driver, but missing of track coused by understear or tail swings are something what anyone can expect when sharply cornering with too much speed. Naturally, one can also expect that almost any ordinary car can be flipped top to bottom if driven improperly and unreasonably...

When SAT PLUS goes on sale I will try to send you some scans of their photos...

Further tests showed more of sliding, but allways on three wheels...

What is about fourth wheel? Or is typing error?

What is about fourth wheel? Or is typing error?

It is not typing error, but I was not completely scpecific - there were four wheels on the vehicle, but as one could expect - rear wheel inside the corner, near obstacle, often lifted from the ground in very sharp cornering. That is something what usualy hapens on many small cars when sharply cornering with too much speed (for example, I saw Golf III few times in such situation)... So, what I was trying to say is - Logan never got on two wheels when one could expect it to roll over.

satplus, thanks for the info.

The test results seem to be in concordance with other similar tests. The car is not at all a disaster but (as expected) should be handled with responsability.

The car is not at all a disaster but (as expected) should be handled with responsability.

Like a dildo, huh ?

Some pictures from "SAT Plus" test....
Text is in serbian...pictures are not so good...
I'm waiting for comments from Serbia......and all others


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sat3.jpg ( Size: 485.05k ) Number of downloads: 2505

Like a dildo, huh ? 

like Dildo Baggins. All the other hero-cars are going to fight, push forward, climb the mountains, swim the Black Sea. Dildo Baggins just relaxes with the elves, having a good time in slow motion, carefull not to fall down the stairs to the shire.

I think now I made myself understood.

This post has been edited by Lolek: 26 Aug 2005, 20:47

hello to everyone from germany

i have some news about the rolling logan

first of all, a german magazine called "autozeitung" made a retest of the logan with 4 other mini-cars. the conclusion in short is simple:

"Logan and five more cheap cars in a hard test: No one tilt"

and the chief made an editorial about his point of view of the "testing"-methods of the adac (and its not very positive )


and then i found a huge text about the adac-test from a page called "motor-kritik.de". the page is made from someone, who is journalist, so he can take a better look behind the scenes then we do. first of all, the time the adac tested the logan, the renault-head ghosn made a visit at renault deutschland in brühl (the adac-test-center is near brühl). so he decided to take the car to france and he even thought about an impeachment against the adac - now its clear why the online-article was offline so fast.

if anybody wants to the text (its in german) through babelfish or so, here is the link: http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/05081506.HTM

My intention was not to mention WWII at first,
it was between lines for those who read so.

It's my luck I don't red so

I understood what you where trying to say the first time, specilly because I saw the post brfore the edit and with the nice picture you have posted. Me trying to turn the thing to marketing is a way of sayying "Lighen up a bit, huh?" or (fulao si ceo fudbal).

OK Boris, I tried to be sarcastic but realised that it (the picture)
was a little over edge so it fell down
Hawk eye...

"At the very beginning of testing we diagnosed that speedmeter of Logan was showing
higher speed than real...For example,If one drives 75km/h speedmeter will show 80km/h.
Error is a bit higher than 6 %, the same as in measurement of our italian partner
Quatroroute performed in last december..."

It`s from `famous` Sat Plus magazine

This post has been edited by mccoy: 29 Aug 2005, 13:59

Error is a bit higher than  6 %, the same as in measurement  of our italian partner Quatroroute performed in last december... It`s from `famous` Sat Plus magazine 

I dont know what confuses you in that info, but for me as SAT PLUS regular reader it is obvious that car speedometer is just informative device and not some scientific tool. It is also obvious that reading of an analog speedometer can be illusion itself - while you drive your head shakes and changes angle of view of instuments, so therefore you can not be shure do you read 79, 80 or 81 kph...
For safety reasons and regulations every car manufacturer is obligated to use postivie drift (reading must be higher than actual speed).

As one could see in SAT documentary and as stated by AMSS CMV that drift of Logan speedometer, as well as all speeds on SAT Plus tests, ware measured using proffessional TAG Heuer measuring equipement by proffessional accredited technicians of AMSS CMV. Drift had to be measured for the particular tested car because the drift can vary if tyre pressure change, or if car manufacturer change internal desing of speedometer... In this case drivers personal reading of cca 80 kph is 6,6% higher then actual meassured speed of 75 kph. Similar results (6%) were measured by Quattroruote`s test centre on an Logan for EU market.

If what bothers you is source of information, or you find confusing how some serbian magazine can meassure speed, you can check out their professionality by regulary watching weekly SAT TV show (it`s TV so you do not have to pay anything to see for yourself)... Finaly follow Quattroruote`s link about elk-tests of Logan:
http://www.quattroruote.it/auto/mondoauto/...ce=40751&Tipo=1

This post has been edited by satplus: 1 Sep 2005, 09:41

Well,not being regular SAT Plus revue reader & SAT TV Show spectator I find myself in unforgivable ignorance.
Here, on this forum, we were talking `bout speed & consumption in various onditions:in town,on the open road, highway...our experiences...board computer etc.
and none mentioned that positive drift of Logan`s and every other speedmeter made for the safety reasons.
How wise,how clever, what manoevre of wisdom.
Now I comprehend how many lives are saven,how less speed-penalties are paid, how higher is traffic safety...
I dare say this `plus 6-7 %` is little, it should be at least loo%
Real speed 5okm/h but one thinks it is l00 km/h.No moose, no dog, no cat,no fly will be injured.As well known
- we are all God`s creatures.
Here plus,there minus 6-7 %,who cares? Maybe Logan isn`t that long & high, maybe maximum speed isn`t 175km/h ( TAG Heuer measuring equipement ... ),maybe it isn`t 90 hp , 5o l tank...maybe I`m not only 184cm (no foots&inches) tall but 195cm, someone has cheated me not to become known basketball player and earn money...maybe this isn`t A.D.2005 ...
OK,speedmeter,board computer, lights etc. just beautifay ugly dashboard by itself, it`s obvious...
Neither source of information,no serbian magazine meassuring speed bothers me.
I`m doubtless `bout results,they were expected.
But, the first fact that could confuse me a bit is you suggestion for regulary waching `SAT TV show`.
No thanks,I would rather watch some strange competition called Formula 1 (!?) which, what coincidence usually takes place at the same time as `leading serbian automotive TV show`.
The second could be the fact that was the third testing of Logan organized by SAT, announced end performed the way that reminded me to the sentence in anthological
` In the jaws of life` - Now yuo`ll see how Serb f..ks!!! Or `being the bigger catholic than Pope`
The third - as one of the first Logan buyers in Serbia I ougth to say that somehow I don`t like the way SAT takes care of LGN, as well as the way yuo act as SAT defender...

This one is for abroad friends...

This post has been edited by mccoy: 5 Sep 2005, 23:39

mccoy, precise measuring of speed on a car can get quite expensive if you require it to be very precise. On most cars I heard of (Mercedes and BMW included) there is this compromise between precision and costs. The fact that they chose to be on the safe side by displaying a greater speed value seems only normal to me.