Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ German marketing machine, How to discredit competition...

It's look like Germans automobile marketing machine is taking Renault and Logan project seriously. After "famous" test about how 5 years old Golf is much better in terms of security and reliability than brand new Logan, and even better test between Logan and WV Fox, where Logan droped Fox in every single category BUT final conclusion was that Fox is better because it is made by Wolkswagen , and Logan is not made by Renault but Dacia instead, now we face NEW and GENUINE test performed by Bild where we can see how Logan flips right on the roof going only 65 km/h. http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/auto/fotog...enderPopup.html The problem is that I saw with my own eyes how Logan pass "nort elk" and "slalom" tests with speed around 70 km/h without any, and I mean any issue (all four wheels firmly on road). Now should I beleive in German Bild magazine or in my own eyes? Or Bild maybe has some special test where main goal is to place car on the roof??? I know what industrial competition means and know that this is "take no prisoner" fight, but I just think that this is little over the edge. I hope that Renault and Dacia will take these ofences seriously and that they will respond in the same manner.

It's look like Germans automobile marketing machine is taking Renault and Logan project seriously.

After "famous" test about how 5 years old Golf is much better in terms of security and reliability than brand new Logan, and even better test between Logan and WV Fox, where Logan droped Fox in every single category BUT final conclusion was that Fox is better because it is made by Wolkswagen , and Logan is not made by Renault but Dacia instead, now we face NEW and GENUINE test performed by Bild where we can see how Logan flips right on the roof going only 65 km/h.

http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/auto/fotog...enderPopup.html

The problem is that I saw with my own eyes how Logan pass "nort elk" and "slalom" tests with speed around 70 km/h without any, and I mean any issue (all four wheels firmly on road). Now should I beleive in German Bild magazine or in my own eyes? Or Bild maybe has some special test where main goal is to place car on the roof???

I know what industrial competition means and know that this is "take no prisoner" fight, but I just think that this is little over the edge. I hope that Renault and Dacia will take these ofences seriously and that they will respond in the same manner.

We already discuss this here
You'll not understand too much, but you can find more links.

The fight is in fact between german second hand cars and the Logan. One of the most important market for SH german cars is Eastern Europe and poor population in Western countries. Losing this market is not only a problem for first hand buyers, is also a lost for the production (important) of spare parts.

We debated the issue this morning and finnaly the topic closed, as ussual when it's about LGN;
Nevertheless we concluded that it is genuine and dacia should do something to improve the suspensions,
So, what are you talking about "saw the moose test with my own eyes"; when and where ?

aargh logan sucks at stability on cornering ar high speeds. it's normal , soft suspenssion + high gravity center make it a fridge on wheels . what can u do ?

I hope that Renault and Dacia will take these ofences seriously and that they will respond in the same manner.

I don't think they will. IMO, best strategy is to shut up. 'bad publicity' is still free publicity that the german auto magazines are doing for Renault.

This post has been edited by vv: 26 Jul 2005, 15:13

OK , then try to flip over a golf IV ! i dare u !

take care George; as far far as I know is that Mercedes is the only one paying a prize for fliping over one of their cars (although after A1 classes....)
So do not be so sure about Golf IV

i am quite sure

We already discuss this here
You'll not understand too much, but you can find more links.

The fight is in fact between german second hand cars and the Logan. One of the most important market for SH german cars is Eastern Europe and poor population in Western countries.  Losing this market is not only a problem for first hand buyers, is also a lost for the production (important) of spare parts.

In auto and TV magazine SAT in Serbia they performed many tests on Logan. Latest was side-by-side test between Logan and Lada 110. When they tested overal handling they did "north elk" test with both cars and Lada did it in 65 km/h speed with rear end showing unstability (but still far, far behind fliping on roof), and Logan passed it without any unstability going around 70 km/h. They broadcasted it on this Sunday, two days ago. So I saw it with my own eyes.
I hope that we talk here about test which simulates rapid maneuver (car is going stright reaching desired speed, then rapidly move left as trying to avoid unexpected object, and than again rapidly move to right) something like this: ______/---\_______

yes this is the test;
tell me you Logan was full ? I mean 4 people inside and some wieght in the trunck (maximum weight inside) ?
otherwise we have aproblem cause the bloody germans run an empty car for the test which is not cusher !

Huh, I'm not sure about that but I think that they not tested fully loaded Logan. I think that there was only professional test driver (wearing helmet for protection - which means that they take these tests seriously), but as I remember they said that they perform these tests with tank full of gasoline.

Also, they tested Logan Laureate 1.6 MPI with Michelin tires.

it's interesting: one flipped over and the other did not !!
could be the Germans so disperate and fraud the test ?

it's interesting: one flipped over and the other did not  !!
could be the Germans so disperate and fraud the test ?

i doubt it

ph34r germany romania is taking over ... comme on !

it's interesting: one flipped over and the other did not  !!
could be the Germans so disperate and fraud the test ?

As long as I think about everything, I just cannot imagine how is it possible to flip Logan at that speed, no matter how rapid maneuver is. I mean, I had couple of situations so far when I was forced to rapidly move left or right in order to avoid something and I really did not noticed any signs of unstability.

BTW, is that real man in car on these German pictures or some kind of doll???

off topic: I can't imagine Z KAR pronounced any other way then a la francaise. [ze kar], with strong Z and rolled R

I had some doubts about the driver but finnaly it looks real; strange there is no helmet though !

This post has been edited by costi: 27 Jul 2005, 08:33

I don't trust germans. I am working with german ppl 18 years now and I know their way of being. I'm convinced that it is somehow frauded. Who knows what speed the vehicle has... do u believe what they are saying? Logan is very well sold in Germany and of course competition is paniced.

The ADAC says that the front wheel's rim got stuck in the ground, and that's why the car flipped.
I'm not sure who's fault is in this case.. Michelin's, for having soft tirewalls? Logan's, for having soft suspension?

The ADAC says that the front wheel's rim got stuck in the ground, and that's why the car flipped.
I'm not sure who's fault is in this case.. Michelin's, for having soft tirewalls? Logan's, for having soft suspension?

Huh, I did not read entire text because I found only German versions, but rim to be stucked in the ground??? With tire inflated to recomended specifications??? It's not holding the water...
Something was definitelly wrong with this ADAC Logan test and I bet that we can expect very soon additional independent tests to be provided.

Renault declared that "they will analyze the car carefully" and that the result is strange, since at a similar test perfromed by then in Sweden the car had no problems. We'll see who wins this battle... I have a feeling that the 'german marketing machine' does not target the german car buyer, but the easter-european one.....

One thing is clear though: Logan is not a sports car! It trades off stability and dynamic performance for comfort (high car, soft suspensions). We need no german test to see this - and even though I am convinced that the germans 'forced' Logan to turn over, it's good to remmember while driving that our car was not optimized for maximum stability.

Do you have any news about the driver? He had no helmet, the car toppled and they said the front left prop crashed. The poor guy must be in real bad shape by now...

Don't you think he should sue the ADAC for having him try that three NCAP stars, poorly designed, proven insecure vehicle without providing him with basic security equipment?

The only explanation that comes to my mind is that they've been so confident with the car and thought any protection gear would be superfluous. But then again, didn't they know about the Golf 3 comparison results?

This post has been edited by Kramer: 27 Jul 2005, 10:13

One thing is clear though: Logan is not a sports car! It trades off stability and dynamic performance for comfort (high car, soft suspensions). We need no german test to see this - and even though I am convinced that the germans 'forced' Logan to turn over, it's good to remmember while driving that our car was not optimized for maximum stability.

That's Word of wisdom man. We always have to understand what are real limits of cars we are driving. It is very true that Logan is not made to be a sport machine. It is just an average familly car designated to bring you from place A to place B with maximum possible comfort and fair safety in that price range.

While starting this whole thread I just wanted to point the fact that in modern industrial competition marketing is often using FUD methods (Fear, Uncertanity, Dubt) in order to achieve designated goals. We face these methods in IT industry almost every day. "Independent" studies, controled environment tests, partial statistics - it is very easy today to make product A to be "better" than product "B". Take for exampe the latest Microsoft "Get the Fact" campaign against Linux, or Intel vs AMD competition...

This post has been edited by icatenej: 27 Jul 2005, 11:26

Well, this whole thing looks like it's going to be a long show, so get some popcorn!
In the early'90 Car and Driver magazine in the US managed to flip a Suzuki Samurai over. The sales went down like a stone. Suzuki sued. They just reached a final settlement, some 10+years since they stopped producing the darn thing!

Yes, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. It turned out that in fact Logan passed the moose test, twice, at a speed of 100km/h. Afterwards, they tried to do a photo shooting session and that's when they accidentally managed to flip it over.
(That was posted on the Romanian thread of the forum)

Is there any new rumors regarding this topic. I can see that similar topic on Romanian part of this forum reached more than 450 replies. Unfortunatelly, I don't speak Romanian, so I have no clue what is talking about...

in short, this is what happened:
ADAC organised a test (nothing to do with the moose test) and LGN passed it all right at 100Km/h.
At the end of it they tried to "play" with the car for a photo session and flipped it over totally unexpected (this is why the driver had no helmet on).
During the first tries one tyre went off and this is why the LGN had 3 Al wheels and one steel wheel at the end (they replaced the broken tyre wheel with the spare wheel.
The steel wheel was the turning point for the car going upside down and they blame it on the tyre or pressure inside.
Renault says they have no explanation and will study the issue, Dacia here is mute and everybody's happy.
No word of a lawsuit.

This post has been edited by costi: 28 Jul 2005, 13:29

in short, this is what happened:
ADAC organised a test (nothing to do with the moose test) and LGN passed it all right at 100Km/h.
At the end of it they tried to "play" with the car for a photo session and flipped it over totally unexpected (this is why the driver had no helmet on).
During the first tries one tyre went off and this is why the LGN had 3 Al wheels and one steel wheel at the end (they replaced the broken tyre wheel with the spare wheel.
The steel wheel was the turning point for the car going upside down and they blame it on the tyre or pressure inside.
Renault says they have no explanation and will study the issue, Dacia here is mute and everybody's happy.
No word of a lawsuit.

Is there any web sources quoting this? I would like to shut some mouths on couple of local forums.

http://www.renault-presse.de/data/main.html

This post has been edited by costi: 28 Jul 2005, 14:07

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can you translate this,because it is .jpeg file

"Dacia Logan im Ausweichtest

Der ADAC berichtet aktuell von Fahrdynamiktests mit einem Dacia Logan. Danach hat sich das Fahrzeug bei einem Ausweichtest mit einer Geschwindigkeit von 65 km/h überschlagen.

Für Renault ist der Überschlag nicht nachvollziehbar. Nach derzeitigen Erkenntnissen führte der ADAC zunächst zwei Ausweichtests nach ADAC-Norm mit 100 km/h durch. Dabei traten keine Probleme auf. Anschließend erfolgten zu Fotozwecken weitere Ausweichübungen unter spontan willkürlich festgelegten Bedingungen. Dabei kam es zu dem vom ADAC beschriebenen Verhalten.

Der Dacia Logan hat umfangreiche externe Ausweichtests sowohl in Automobilfachzeitschriften als auch im Rahmen von Testfahrten der Jury „Auto des Jahres” ohne Probleme absolviert. Auch bei zahlreichen internen Prüfungen zeigte sich ein einwandfreies Fahrverhalten. "